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	<title>Comments on: Aquinas on Sexual Sins &#8211; The Dangers of Speaking Formally</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog/2009/06/aquinas-on-sexual-sins-dangers-of-speaking-formally/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog/2009/06/aquinas-on-sexual-sins-dangers-of-speaking-formally/</link>
	<description>A Catholic blog on the vocation to love and holiness, on the thought of St. Thomas Aquinas, and on diverse theological and philosophical questions.</description>
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		<title>By: Joseph Bolin</title>
		<link>http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog/2009/06/aquinas-on-sexual-sins-dangers-of-speaking-formally/#comment-11153</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Bolin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 18:44:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog2/?p=51#comment-11153</guid>
		<description>Who are you speaking to? And what claim or position do you think &quot;undermines the foundations of the natural law&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who are you speaking to? And what claim or position do you think "undermines the foundations of the natural law"?</p>
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		<title>By: Tancred</title>
		<link>http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog/2009/06/aquinas-on-sexual-sins-dangers-of-speaking-formally/#comment-11151</link>
		<dc:creator>Tancred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 17:53:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog2/?p=51#comment-11151</guid>
		<description>You&#039;d do better to show how the aforementioned sexual sins against nature are not contra nature rather than relying on contemporary sentiment to attempt to undermine the foundations of the natural law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You'd do better to show how the aforementioned sexual sins against nature are not contra nature rather than relying on contemporary sentiment to attempt to undermine the foundations of the natural law.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph Bolin</title>
		<link>http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog/2009/06/aquinas-on-sexual-sins-dangers-of-speaking-formally/#comment-8399</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Bolin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2011 06:28:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog2/?p=51#comment-8399</guid>
		<description>I will make a fuller reply later. For now, note that Aquinas asks about many sins whether they are the worst sin: infidelity, blasphemy, idolatry, despair, hatred of God, avarice, pride. He says about all of these that they are the greatest sin in some way; about blasphemy and idolatry he says without restriction that they are the greatest sin, and speaking about idolatry and pride, even does so against objections that say that hatred of God is worse.

In contrast, Aquinas &lt;i&gt;never&lt;/i&gt; says that the sin against nature is the worst sin, but that it is the worst sin &lt;i&gt;among the species of lust&lt;/i&gt;.

When he categorizes types of sin, he says that sins against God are the worst, then sins against one&#039;s neighbor. Among sins against one&#039;s neighbor, those which are against actual life, such as homicide, are the worst, then those against life in potency, as the sins of lust are.

Now, mortal sins of violence belong to the same kind of sin as homicide, and thus will be as such worse than the sins of lust.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will make a fuller reply later. For now, note that Aquinas asks about many sins whether they are the worst sin: infidelity, blasphemy, idolatry, despair, hatred of God, avarice, pride. He says about all of these that they are the greatest sin in some way; about blasphemy and idolatry he says without restriction that they are the greatest sin, and speaking about idolatry and pride, even does so against objections that say that hatred of God is worse.</p>
<p>In contrast, Aquinas <i>never</i> says that the sin against nature is the worst sin, but that it is the worst sin <i>among the species of lust</i>.</p>
<p>When he categorizes types of sin, he says that sins against God are the worst, then sins against one's neighbor. Among sins against one's neighbor, those which are against actual life, such as homicide, are the worst, then those against life in potency, as the sins of lust are.</p>
<p>Now, mortal sins of violence belong to the same kind of sin as homicide, and thus will be as such worse than the sins of lust.</p>
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		<title>By: Climacus</title>
		<link>http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog/2009/06/aquinas-on-sexual-sins-dangers-of-speaking-formally/#comment-8385</link>
		<dc:creator>Climacus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:01:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog2/?p=51#comment-8385</guid>
		<description>I appreciate your defense of Thomist thought regarding sexual ethics here, (mostly because what you elucidate is what I wish were true) - but as I carefully read and re-read Q154 in the summa, I&#039;m not so convinced Lawler, May and Boyle are correctly interpreting what Aquinas is saying here. Allow me to defend my premise: 

The thrust of Boyle&#039;s argument, that, &quot;Thus, as a sin, rape is far more serious than masturbation or homosexual sodomy because it not only offends chastity but also gravely violates justice&quot; seems to neglect that the emphasis that Aquinas puts on, &quot;the sins against nature&quot;. 

Aquinas makes himself clear by echoing Augustine that, &quot;...of all these&quot; (the sins belonging to lust) &quot;that which is against nature is the worst.&quot; The reason for this is is given in his reply to objection 1: 

&quot;Just as the ordering of right reason proceeds form man, so the order of nature is from God Himself...&quot; That is to say that a sin contrary to charity is in no way worse than a sin contrary to nature. In fact, Aquinas seems to be pointing out that a sin contrary to nature may be in fact worse than a sin contrary to charity, because such a sin, &quot;does injury to God, the Author of nature.&quot; Aquinas goes as far as to invoke Augustine&#039;s condemnation of those who violate nature: &quot;Those foul offenses that are against nature should everywhere and at all times be punished, such as were those of the people of Sodom.&quot; 

As we know, the people of Sodom were utterly destroyed. 

Aquinas goes on in objection 2 to show that sin against nature is worse than the sin of sacrilege: 

&quot;Vices against nature are also against God... and are SO MUCH MORE GRIEVOUS THAN THE DEPRAVITY OF SACRILEGE, as the order impressed on human nature is prior to and more firm than any subsequently established order.&quot; 

Now, you use the word &quot;justice&quot; to describe the antithesis of sacrilege. In other words, Aquinas&#039;s use of the word sacrilege is synonymous with what you would call &quot;injustice&quot;. Therefore, to counter your argument, Aquinas may be re-read as such:

&quot;Vices against nature are also against God, as stated above, and are so much more grievous than the depravity of *injustice*...&quot; 

The way that Aquinas spells out his argument seems clear, concise, and without ambiguity. It seems to be that he is clearly stating that injustice against another human is not worse than, and in fact may be less than, an injustice against nature. 

Hope I&#039;m missing something, 
Climacus</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate your defense of Thomist thought regarding sexual ethics here, (mostly because what you elucidate is what I wish were true) &#8211; but as I carefully read and re-read Q154 in the summa, I'm not so convinced Lawler, May and Boyle are correctly interpreting what Aquinas is saying here. Allow me to defend my premise: </p>
<p>The thrust of Boyle's argument, that, "Thus, as a sin, rape is far more serious than masturbation or homosexual sodomy because it not only offends chastity but also gravely violates justice" seems to neglect that the emphasis that Aquinas puts on, "the sins against nature". </p>
<p>Aquinas makes himself clear by echoing Augustine that, "&#8230;of all these" (the sins belonging to lust) "that which is against nature is the worst." The reason for this is is given in his reply to objection 1: </p>
<p>"Just as the ordering of right reason proceeds form man, so the order of nature is from God Himself&#8230;" That is to say that a sin contrary to charity is in no way worse than a sin contrary to nature. In fact, Aquinas seems to be pointing out that a sin contrary to nature may be in fact worse than a sin contrary to charity, because such a sin, "does injury to God, the Author of nature." Aquinas goes as far as to invoke Augustine's condemnation of those who violate nature: "Those foul offenses that are against nature should everywhere and at all times be punished, such as were those of the people of Sodom." </p>
<p>As we know, the people of Sodom were utterly destroyed. </p>
<p>Aquinas goes on in objection 2 to show that sin against nature is worse than the sin of sacrilege: </p>
<p>"Vices against nature are also against God&#8230; and are SO MUCH MORE GRIEVOUS THAN THE DEPRAVITY OF SACRILEGE, as the order impressed on human nature is prior to and more firm than any subsequently established order." </p>
<p>Now, you use the word "justice" to describe the antithesis of sacrilege. In other words, Aquinas's use of the word sacrilege is synonymous with what you would call "injustice". Therefore, to counter your argument, Aquinas may be re-read as such:</p>
<p>"Vices against nature are also against God, as stated above, and are so much more grievous than the depravity of *injustice*&#8230;" </p>
<p>The way that Aquinas spells out his argument seems clear, concise, and without ambiguity. It seems to be that he is clearly stating that injustice against another human is not worse than, and in fact may be less than, an injustice against nature. </p>
<p>Hope I'm missing something,<br />
Climacus</p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog/2009/06/aquinas-on-sexual-sins-dangers-of-speaking-formally/#comment-7253</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Sep 2011 01:00:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog2/?p=51#comment-7253</guid>
		<description>This past Sunday we revisited the readings Ezekiel 33:7-7, Romans 13:8-10 and the Gospel according to Matthew 18:15-20. In his Homily our Deacon recounted St. Paul&#039;s epistle and reiterated &quot;Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law&quot;. The idea was that there is a sort of catch all. One common objection I hear to religion in general is that people overcomplicate things and lose sight of the meaning. I do not agree per se, but I am glad Jesus spelled it out for us anyway. If you love someone you do not do any the things we have been quibbling about in this blog... At that point the severity of the various offenses almost becomes a mute point. Then I think the open and humble heart, is healed by God to whatever degree is necessary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This past Sunday we revisited the readings Ezekiel 33:7-7, Romans 13:8-10 and the Gospel according to Matthew 18:15-20. In his Homily our Deacon recounted St. Paul's epistle and reiterated "Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law". The idea was that there is a sort of catch all. One common objection I hear to religion in general is that people overcomplicate things and lose sight of the meaning. I do not agree per se, but I am glad Jesus spelled it out for us anyway. If you love someone you do not do any the things we have been quibbling about in this blog&#8230; At that point the severity of the various offenses almost becomes a mute point. Then I think the open and humble heart, is healed by God to whatever degree is necessary.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog/2009/06/aquinas-on-sexual-sins-dangers-of-speaking-formally/#comment-7252</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Sep 2011 00:45:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog2/?p=51#comment-7252</guid>
		<description>Just in case anyone else was interested, you can read the rest of the Article, (Whether the unnatural vice is the greatest sin among the species of lust?) here http://newadvent.org/summa/3154.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just in case anyone else was interested, you can read the rest of the Article, (Whether the unnatural vice is the greatest sin among the species of lust?) here <a href="http://newadvent.org/summa/3154.htm" rel="nofollow">http://newadvent.org/summa/3154.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog/2009/06/aquinas-on-sexual-sins-dangers-of-speaking-formally/#comment-7251</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Sep 2011 00:41:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog2/?p=51#comment-7251</guid>
		<description>You can tell it is good because we are still reading and posting on it : )

Thank you for your honest and reasonable defense of our beloved Church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can tell it is good because we are still reading and posting on it : )</p>
<p>Thank you for your honest and reasonable defense of our beloved Church.</p>
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		<title>By: Elizabeth D</title>
		<link>http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog/2009/06/aquinas-on-sexual-sins-dangers-of-speaking-formally/#comment-7229</link>
		<dc:creator>Elizabeth D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Sep 2011 03:53:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog2/?p=51#comment-7229</guid>
		<description>Sam, if engaged couples fornicate it is nontheless gravely contrary to chastity, and excludes them from receiving Communion licitly until the sin is sacramentally confessed and absolved. Many today make little attempt to hide their violation of chastity but cohabit and fornicate with someone they might or might not eventually marry (public concubinage). They risk giving bad example and scandal: because of the timing of the birth in relation to the wedding, it will presumably become publically known that the couple had premarital relations (although when this sin is compounded by contraceptive use, surely it is more serious rather than less so). There is also the serious risk of harm to offspring and being deprived of family life with married mother and father, if the couple winds up not marrying. And the individuals&#039; willingness to have extramarital relations before marriage is a poor preparation for abstinence from extramarital relations after they are married. Chastity before marriage respects the sanctity of marriage and the dignity of the man and woman, and is the appropriate and best training and foundation for real and total self-giving of the spouses and conjugal chastity within marriage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam, if engaged couples fornicate it is nontheless gravely contrary to chastity, and excludes them from receiving Communion licitly until the sin is sacramentally confessed and absolved. Many today make little attempt to hide their violation of chastity but cohabit and fornicate with someone they might or might not eventually marry (public concubinage). They risk giving bad example and scandal: because of the timing of the birth in relation to the wedding, it will presumably become publically known that the couple had premarital relations (although when this sin is compounded by contraceptive use, surely it is more serious rather than less so). There is also the serious risk of harm to offspring and being deprived of family life with married mother and father, if the couple winds up not marrying. And the individuals' willingness to have extramarital relations before marriage is a poor preparation for abstinence from extramarital relations after they are married. Chastity before marriage respects the sanctity of marriage and the dignity of the man and woman, and is the appropriate and best training and foundation for real and total self-giving of the spouses and conjugal chastity within marriage.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremiah</title>
		<link>http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog/2009/06/aquinas-on-sexual-sins-dangers-of-speaking-formally/#comment-6347</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremiah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2011 00:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog2/?p=51#comment-6347</guid>
		<description>Stumbled upon your website. I know this is an old post, but I commend you for it. I also encountered an ex-Jesuit seminarian over dinner who mentioned this very thing, about masturbation being worse than sex, but he attributed it to Augustine (though from my impression, he could have attributed it to any medieval theologian). I&#039;m very glad to know that this is not the case, and that this is a misunderstanding in reading Aquinas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stumbled upon your website. I know this is an old post, but I commend you for it. I also encountered an ex-Jesuit seminarian over dinner who mentioned this very thing, about masturbation being worse than sex, but he attributed it to Augustine (though from my impression, he could have attributed it to any medieval theologian). I'm very glad to know that this is not the case, and that this is a misunderstanding in reading Aquinas.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog/2009/06/aquinas-on-sexual-sins-dangers-of-speaking-formally/#comment-65</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 01:52:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog2/?p=51#comment-65</guid>
		<description>I believe Aquinas&#039;s meaning of fornication in Article 2. only included &quot;simple fornication&quot;, which in his context probably meant &#039;unmarried sex between two people, and one of them is a prostitute&#039;. I don&#039;t think he included the idea of &quot;engaged couples&quot; into his writing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe Aquinas's meaning of fornication in Article 2. only included "simple fornication", which in his context probably meant 'unmarried sex between two people, and one of them is a prostitute'. I don't think he included the idea of "engaged couples" into his writing.</p>
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